Public Meeting - CARDIFF

On Wednesday 22 February around 100 members of the public had the opportunity of questioning members of the BBC's Board of Governors and representatives of Senior Management at a public meeting held at the BBC's Broadcasting House in Cardiff . A panel, consisting of the following Governors - Michael Grade (Chairman); Merfyn Jones (National Governor of Wales ); Ruth Deech and Richard Tait - took questions on a wide variety of subjects. These ranged from the value for money of the Licence Fee to Welsh programming.

You can read a detailed account of the questions asked and the responses below. Alternatively you can watch the debate as it happened using the webstreams links.

Watch the web-cast Watch the web-cast with sub-titles and sign language interpretation

Please use the links below to read the specific questions and answers raised on various subjects.
Licence fee
Digital
Welsh programming
Portrayal
Value for money
Background noise
Language
Social responsibility
Premium telephone lines
Radio

Licence fee
Q. Why are you putting another £5 on the licence fee? It's too dear at the moment considering the number of repeats being shown. Programmes are outdated. The new price for OAPs is extortionate.
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
I'm sure a lot of people share that view. When you reach 75, you get the licence for free. The Licence fee has to be as low as possible, but it's an extraordinarily clever device because for basically the cost of a daily newspaper, you're getting eight TV channels. You're getting ten radio networks. You're getting dedicated radio and television in the four nations. You're getting 14 local radio stations in England . You're getting an amazing website. You're getting the Proms. You're getting the orchestras. You're getting a huge contribution to British culture in all its diversity, in its national diversity, Nation's diversity, and if you weren't to have a universal licence fee, which means all the services have to be universally available, the cost would be a lot higher. You're getting a choice of media which is free of advertising, which I think is a real choice and benefit for consumers. And you are getting it at a price, as I say, which compares pretty favourably with other things that you pay for that you don't think about. That can only be delivered with a universally paid licence fee. We don't set the licence fee. The licence fee is set by Government.

But you keep telling us you want extra services. You want more local services. You want more attention paid to where you live, the nation, the region, the locality where you live. You want fewer repeats. You want that replaced with new programmes. However, all that costs money. Some people don't particularly watch some of the BBC's output, though everybody has to pay the licence fee. Can that be fair? It's a fair question, and the answer is that the BBC has to provide something for everybody. If it doesn't do that, we're not doing the job we have been asked to do. And I think if you look at the situation in Wales , you can see that in a whole range of ways the licence fee is providing good value for the people of Wales .

You take news and current affairs programmes, for example - the commercial media in the form of the newspapers and television are having quite a tough time at present, and I think that in BBC Wales's news and current affairs, you have got a tremendous contribution to the democratic process in Wales . Similarly, the BBC's a great cultural patron. We spend nearly £40 million a year on producing great drama in Wales , like Casanova and Doctor Who. And that's creating jobs and creating opportunities for people here.

Q. Has the BBC ever considered other means of income? That includes advertising.
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
You can fund the BBC any way that you want. You can fund it through advertising. You could fund it through subscription. What you can't pretend is that by putting the BBC into competition for revenue, that it will be the same BBC afterwards. It just won't happen. If you were to take advertising, which is the most obvious port of call for funding, the BBC's entry into the advertising market would do two terrible things. The first thing it would do is impoverish all broadcasting because it's not axiomatic that the advertising part of revenue is going to expand just because it's decided that the BBC is going to - the money would not increase. It would just be spread more thinly across all the channels, so I don't think that's an option.

The second thing that would happen is that you, the licence fee payers, the British public, would not be in prime position as they are now in terms of being considered whenever any decision is made about programming. The advertising - the sales department - would have a say in what programmes are chosen. Your interests would be diluted and would have to be shared with advertisers. That would completely change the way the BBC looks, feels, tastes. It would completely change the relationship the BBC has with its audience.

Ruth Deech (BBC Governor) responds:
I grew up as a child listening to the radio. It's my education. I think it's still an educational asset today. It's a national asset. It's Britain 's voice to the rest of the world. Even if you don't listen or watch very much, your children probably do, and the BBC has an educational role that I don't think any other provider has or would be very interested in. We're all watchers and payers as well, because we all have a direct stake in it, which is something you can't do with a commercially funded organisation, so I think it's well worth keeping that way.

Digital
Q. Can it be justified that the Rhondda licence payers pay a full rate when we only have a reduced service which has no Channel 4, no Channel 5 or no digital services whatsoever? Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
Is there an easy answer? No, there isn't an easy answer. If you look across Wales, because of the geography - the fact that you have large populations living in hilly areas which by definition also have valleys - then there is a real problem in terms of accessibility to some of the services that the BBC offer. And it is certainly the intention of the Broadcasting Council and myself to try and ensure as best we can that those issues are addressed as quickly as possible. There are people here who have a better technical grasp of the issues than I do and who are working hard to solve some of these issues, but I think one has to start from recognising that there is a problem. I can't get Freeview where I live, so I understand the problem - very well.

There are other ways of accessing the digital channels. There are solutions coming on stream; technical solutions, to try and ensure that the accessibility is improved, and as I say, there are alternative ways of getting access, but I think there an issue there, and I think you're right as a member of the BBC's audience to raise that issue.

Mark Thompson (Director-General) responds:
The challenge is that to deliver an analogue television signal into the Rhondda Valley, we need not just the main transmitters that work in many of the flat parts of the United Kingdom, but we also need a series of repeater stations which beam the signal all the way down the Valley, and for these stations, we have to use different frequencies to get the analogue signal down the Valley. That means, however, that the space isn't available currently to beam a Freeview signal down the Valley as well. At the moment of switchover, we can build out digital repeaters. Once the analogue signal is switched off, we can then illuminate the whole of the Valley with the digital terrestrial signal, but only at that point.

We recognise this is a problem across the UK, but a particular problem in some parts of Wales, and it's one we take very seriously. One of the things we're looking at right now is how we can launch a very low-cost satellite service rather like Freeview, something that you can just buy once and which will work right away, so somebody who can't currently get Freeview will still be able to get all of the BBC's digital services, and by the way, Channel 4 and Channel 5 as well.

Q. Do the board members think it's fair that you pay the full cost of the TV licence with no end reward for that outlay, without having to subscribe to BSkyB? We have no reception whatsoever in our village, no analogue, no Freeview, no nothing. And we have to pay twice to get one picture. Do you consider that fair?
Caroline Thomson (Director, BBC Strategy) responds:
If you have got a satellite dish at the moment you can get the BBC's service without paying your subscription to Sky, because the BBC's services are available unencrypted on your satellite dish. So you don't need to continue paying a subscription to Sky to get the BBC services. If you haven't got a Sky dish, then we're hoping that during next year we will be launching our own free satellite service, which would make available on the same basis as Freeview all our services for free to you.

Q. With the digital services, could you explain when the switchover will take place? How far will Radio Wales and Radio Cymru spread?
Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
Wales is one of the first places that will see a switchover from analogue to digital. I think it is supposed to take place there 2009. The process won't start anyway until 2008. This will create opportunities. More is on offer through digital than through analogue. With Radio Cymru and Radio Wales at present, that is a very complicated question. This is something we as a Broadcasting Council and a Board of Governors are working to solve. It is not just a matter of policy for the BBC; it's not just a matter of us saying we will do this. The way digital is implemented through the network and the way different groups use these multiplexes will determine the coverage of Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. It is a very complicated matter and we as a council are aiming to have Radio Wales and Radio Cymru on these multiplexes as soon as possible.

Q. How will transferring from analogue to digital and the extra costs for the BBC affect the BBC's ability to finance programmes on S4C?
Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
We aren't sure what the income of the BBC will be in the future. A decision hasn't been made on the licence. Any answer will be a little vague. Digital costs are part of the outline the BBC has put forward. In principle, I'd say that I and the Council are determined that we will invest in Welsh language programmes on TV, like we have been doing. We want to ensure that the more popular programmes that are currently broadcast on S4C are produced by the BBC.

Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
The BBC remains very supportive of S4C. We are going through the Charter Review process at the moment. As part of that, we have made it very clear to S4C and to the Government in Westminster that we wish to see S4C flourish. We will continue willingly and properly to support the whole concept of S4C, in whatever way is sensible, value for money and so on. But we are, in principle, deeply committed to see the continuing success of S4C. The Board of Governors and the chairman are trying to make sure that there is a strategic partnership for the first time between S4C and the BBC. That discussion is very constructive at present. This isn't just for S4C or the BBC. This is for the audience. The Welsh audience deserve the highest quality programmes.

Q. We're going to be one of the first areas in Britain to have digital television in 2009 when analogue switches off completely, yet you walk around the shops in Cardiff and other places in Wales and you'll see that the majority of the equipment for sale is analogue only, and that includes recording devices. Now, who's going to tell somebody's granny how to work a video recorder via a Freeview box? I think it should be the duty of the BBC now, as we are going to be one of the first areas to switch over, to have things on television to say to people, "2009, analogue finishes. If you now go and buy an analogue-only television or recording device, it will cease to work in 2009".
Caroline Thomson (Director, BBC Strategy) responds:
You are right that there is a real issue about the continued sale of analogue equipment. The BBC is working very hard with box manufacturers and with retailers on the digital switchover plan. We have already done a lot in the Borders, which is the first region to switch, and made a lot of progress there. Analogue television sets are not so much an issue, because the digital boxes are the way of converting them, but the analogue video recorders are an issue. We are also working in partnership with the other broadcasters in an organisation called Digital UK. You will be very soon seeing, particularly in Wales , an information campaign to educate people about what they should and shouldn't be buying. You can already see on equipment a digital tick logo, which is the thing that everyone should be looking for before they buy equipment now as that means that equipment will work after digital switchover. You are right, there is a problem. We are working with the other channels and retailers to do an information campaign. That will happen very soon in Wales .

Q. People who have gone over to digital television in Wales via transmitters cannot get BBC Two. They get 2W only and for most of the evening it is different to BBC Two.
Menna Richards (Controller, BBC Cymru Wales) responds:
BBC 2W was launched as a service specifically for viewers in Wales. It's broadcast on weekday evenings between 8.30pm and 10.00pm. We do recognise that there are issues in Freeview households. What we have been doing in recent months is recognising that and making sure that our scheduling arrangements accommodate some of those key BBC Two programmes that we might not previously had broadcast, like Rome and Balderdash and Piffle. We are working to making sure that viewers are deprived as little as possible. It's clearly a very difficult issue for us because 2W was set up in order to provide that sort of service for viewers in Wales. We do recognise there are issues and we are doing our best to improve that.

Q. With the proliferation of digital Freeview channels, why can't viewers in Wales have a choice of the full range of BBC One and BBC Two programmes available in England as well as regional productions?
Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
I do think that BBC in Wales does have a special responsibility to cover affairs in Wales and to cover Welsh material and contribute to Welsh culture. And, therefore, it's inevitable that BBC One Wales quite properly reflects Wales in that way. How technically you can get both on Freeview, I don't know. There's more to the question. You can certainly see both on digital satellite. On Freeview, even though we have more channels on Freeview than we do on analogue, we don't have the spectrum currently to deliver both versions of these channels. I think it's interesting, we are beginning to talk to Ofcom, the regulator, and the Government about what happens to spare spectrum at switchover time. There is a case for making space available so people can see both.

Mark Thompson (Director General) responds:
What we are also exploring - I accept this won't work for everyone in the early years but it will work for a lot of people - is making the full range of these programmes available to download or stream via broadband on the web. If you miss something on Freeview, you can use the web to get it.

Welsh Programming
Q. The BBC's developed excellent web resources for children, for example, the BBC website. However, the subjects and facilities available in Welsh are very minimal. For example, there are 19 English subjects and six Welsh. Do you have any plans for parity for Welsh-speaking children?
Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
What I think is remarkable about the Welsh provision on the web, is that there is so much of it, it is so rich and the Welsh language is keeping abreast of the latest technology and not having to wait. I was in this building not too long ago when the digital curriculum was being launched, and one of the great achievements of the digital curriculum is the fact that actually the packages that they've presently produced are available simultaneously both in Welsh and in English.

Menna Richards (Controller, BBC Cymru Wales) responds:
BBC Jam, which is the BBC's digital curriculum service, is responsible for not only producing some of that output for the whole of the BBC, but is also producing much of it in the Welsh language. In addition to that there are Welsh language versions of Bite Size and a whole range of other provisions, not only in the educational sphere, but things like The Big Welsh Challenge, which is a BBC television series for Welsh learners.

Q. I'm amazed that the main news programmes from London see that policies are important for England AND Wales, when that is not the case. There was a statement on faith schools on Breakfast, but the question hadn't been raised in the National Assembly. When can we expect correct announcements concerning the situation in Wales?
Richard Tait (BBC Governor) responds:
If that did happen and it's a mistake we should say sorry, because we shouldn't do that. Devolution happened a long time of ago. Journalists should know what the different legislation is in the UK . We take, as do the management of the BBC News, accuracy very seriously. I don't know if this case is right or not. As a general rule, the BBC has spent more time and effort in training its journalists in the reality of post-devolution politics. We have recently set up an interactive college of journalism, which has a series of courses to try and ensure that both existing journalists and new journalists who have come into the organisation do understand how modern Britain works.

Mark Byford (Deputy Director-General) responds:
The simple answer is you should expect it now. You should expect that we recognise the differences across the United Kingdom and the legislative differences of Assembly powers here, as against other areas of the United Kingdom. I would expect our journalism to get that right. So I reiterate what Richard says: if ever we get it wrong, we should apologise for that to you. It shouldn't happen. When devolution first came in in 1997, 1998, we did go through a major training programme across all our journalists, and we're planning to do that again this year. I don't think that'll automatically mean that you'll never get an example where it doesn't happen, but it will help, and we take it very, very seriously.

Q. Why does the BBC insist on showing Question Time in Wales at a different later time than the rest of the UK? This disenfranchises Welsh viewers, by not allowing them to get involved interactively.
Menna Richards (Controller, BBC Cymru Wales) responds:
I appreciate that this is a question that does cause concern to some people. Scheduling is a black art, some people would say. Sometimes it's very difficult to get it right. However, we have thought long and hard about the whole question of where we schedule Dragon's Eye and Question Time, particularly given the interactivity around Question Time. We came to the conclusion, and this is not an easy decision by any means, that it was important that viewers in Wales were able to see a political series about Welsh matters, as close to peak time as p possible. Of course, this is a question for viewers in analogue homes, if you live in a digital home, you have that choice. We took the view as a national service for Wales, offering a public service reporting political events, both in the national assembly and elsewhere, that we should make Dragon's Eye available as close to peak time as possible.

Q. I like a lot of the programmes on 2W, they're very interesting. I'm pleased we have this extra channel. Can you imagine say a lady in Llandudno in north Wales might have on a Friday night from 7.00pm two rugby matches and can't see other programmes at peak time, like Gardeners' World, because you put rugby on two nights a week sometimes?
Menna Richards (Controller, BBC Wales) responds:
I appreciate that there are some members of the audience who don't like to watch rugby. But I can tell you that the viewing figures for live rugby are astonishing. Even those who may not be rugby fans, I think, would be surprised to see just how popular it is.

Portrayal
Q. What is the Governors' viewpoint of the portrayal of people living in Wales on network television? Welshmen are usually portrayed as somewhat lacking in stature. We are portrayed really as second-class and humorous very often.
Ruth Deech (BBC Governor) responds:
I can't speak exactly about drama. As someone who does not have the good fortune to live in Wales, the impression I get of Wales from watching television and listening to radio, it's not so much one of comedy, but it feeds back to me something really good. I think of Wales as a home of great music, of some very good new architecture. I think of Wales in relation to rugby. I think of Wales as a place of great orchestras and singing and Eisteddfod and so on. That may be a bit stereotypical, but it gives me a very good impression of Wales, which I wouldn't get if I read the newspapers, because the newspaper coverage of Wales is not great - if you read the newspapers in London or where I live. I do know that the BBC is very exercised and tries very hard in drama, in employment and in factual programmes to be as diverse as its audience and to try and represent its audience faithfully and to reflect back to its audience the reality of who they are.

Merfyn Jones (National Governor for Wales ) responds:
I don't think it's so much that the Welsh are portrayed in any stereotypical way on network television. It's just that they rarely make an appearance. And that actually one of the great potential treasures of the BBC is to allow the different parts of the United Kingdom to see each other as they are, and to be able to engage in a kind of serious conversations about the identities of people right across the United Kingdom . That does mean that we need to devise ways of portraying contemporary Wales but also other contemporary parts of the United Kingdom as well. Certainly, the Broadcasting Council here in Wales has often wondered how we might succeed in getting onto a network television series, either through drama or other ways, a serious portrayal of Wales and its people. Wales is a very complex and diverse society, very geographically diverse, but also culturally diverse country. I think we need to move away from the idea that there is a stereotypical view.

Value for money
Q. I'd like to know how the BBC justifies sending 240 staff at a cost of £12 million to cover the World Cup in Germany in June 2006. By contrast, ITV have assigned 70 staff.
Mark Thompson (BBC Director General) responds:
Right now we're covering the Winter Olympics. We've got something like 180 people out there. The NBC network in the United States covering the same event has got 2,500 people out there. There is a big difference between what the BBC and ITV are doing. We're both providing coverage on television, of course, but for the BBC, we've also got enormous amounts of radio coverage. ITV's virtually got no web coverage at all and we're absolutely delivering web coverage. We're delivering coverage for the World Service, for radio and television around the world, plus interactive television. We are probably, in hours, delivering four, five, six, seven times as much as ITV. Although it's expensive the World Cup will be watched by many, many millions of people. Depending on the success of teams the people care about, tens of millions of people will watch these games, and I have to say in the great scheme of things, given the scale of the output, I don't think it's unreasonable.

Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
What newspapers fail to - or deliberately decide they're not interested in is we have to take the printing press with us. It's a whole different concept to a newspaper covering an event like that. All these big events and every single programme costs in the BBC go through a very, very rigorous budgetary process, which is scrutinised by the Governors. All the costs have to be justified, so in the end, I think the coverage hopefully will be good value for money.

Background noise
Q. Why is it that most programmes, wildlife and natural scenes included, appear to need the predominance of loud drumming background music, which is irritating and completely spoils the programmes?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
Quite often, there is gratuitous use of music. Sometimes the composers or the directors get carried away. We know that sometimes music adds enormously to film and to TV, and indeed often you'll appreciate we get literally thousands of phone calls for people wanting to find out about a particular piece of music so they can buy it. But what I accept - and it's coming over particularly in recent years very, very strongly in audience reaction - is that particularly for those people who have some level of hearing difficulty, this can really interfere with their enjoyment of programmes, and it's something we will take back and look at again.

Richard Tait (BBC Governor) responds:
I particularly don't like it in news. I think it's often a real problem with news, not necessarily in the BBC, which I think uses it sparingly, but I think there is a growing tendency for producers to put set music to some of the most horrifying images of reality that you can see, and I think viewers should be allowed to see the images and hear what the reporters say without the distraction of music, so I think your point's well made.

Language
Q. If the BBC feels a moral responsibility to listeners and viewers, could its broadcasters adopt a good manners policy when interviewing the public and guests and when chairing discussions?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
I don't think there's ever really an excuse for rudeness. I think there is an excuse for not letting politicians get away with not answering the questions, and sometimes interviewers have to in order to get their respondent to actually answer the question. But there has to be a reason for it, and rudeness, I agree, isn't justified in any circumstance. Good manners are a part of civilised society that we live in, and the BBC shouldn't be an exception to that.

Q. Do the board believe the words "terror" and "fear" are used to increase ratings?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
I would hope that the tone, authority and the fairness at the heart of all BBC's news coverage, which is a pretty core activity of the BBC, is resistant to the tabloid language and the tendency to sensationalise. The BBC aspiration is to be an authoritative voice. I don't think you can be authoritative if you are sensationalist and you sensationalise events or exploit events to create fear and anxiety in the audience. The object is to inform the audience of what is going on.

Richard Tait (BBC Governor) responds:
Because terrorism and crime are so politically sensitive, there is always the danger that they're going to be exploited for other reasons. I do think that the BBC is an organisation which is very aware of this and spends a lot of time talking to its journalists about the need to be sensible and careful in reporting these issues. I know from my own work on the complaints' committee, when we look at complaints we often find that a great deal of thought has gone into the use of language in a way that is not the case in other media. The careless use of language, the careless attribution of motives, the careless stereotyping of people is one of the most dangerous things in our society at the moment. I'm not saying the BBC doesn't make mistakes. Of course it does, it employs human beings. People who run BBC News are working hard to avoid that.

Social responsibility
Q. Does the BBC think it could play an influential part in increasing respect and tolerance in society? And if so how?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
I really don't think it is a broadcaster's job to be in the business of dictating to people how they should behave or what they should do. A broadcaster's job is to try to reflect society as it is in all kinds of genre, whether it's drama, documentary, news, current affairs and so on. We're not in the job of teaching people how they should behave.

Ruth Deech (BBC Governor) responds:
Remember that the BBC does have certain standards that it has to live up to of accuracy, impartiality and fairness and decency. There is a watershed before which you shouldn't have bad language, especially for the sake of children. And I think that's absolutely right. I think the BBC is responsible for maintaining the richness of all the British languages, including Welsh. I think it has a certain cultural responsibility. I think it is right that television should show the best of British drama. The BBC has preserved for nearly a hundred years the very best of British language and culture.

Premium telephone lines
Q. The corporation makes extensive use of 0870 numbers, so-called national rate telephone numbers. Clearly the price to the listeners is a lot more than if it was a conventional number and the corporation receive a rebate from the amounts that the listeners are charged. How do they justify this?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
Any surplus revenues from premium phone lines go to Children in Need and to the charities that you the licence fee payers like us to support. Viewers enjoy participating in the outcome of shows. There is a cost involved, however I can absolutely assure you that when money made, it goes to a very good cause. We don't retain any of the money.

Radio
Q. Do the Governors feel that the processes involved and the criteria used for the selection of this musical content on Radio One and Radio Two, are consistent with their duties to ensure that the BBC remains independent of commercial interference, with particular reference to the playlists and repetition of certain songs?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
Nobody has ever suggested or even provided any evidence of a commercial connection between the editorial decisions about what is or isn't played. Those decisions are made by producers, editors, DJs in a production team. If music is being repeated through the day, it's because that's what the audience is demanding. The present healthy state of Radio One and the very exceedingly healthy state of Radio Two suggests that we are providing the British public with precisely what it is they are enjoying.

Q. Life's made living for me by listening to Men of Harlech every morning on the Radio Four theme tune. I'm not suggesting that you can't change things on Radio Four. Of course you need to keep changing, but please, would you reconsider this?
Michael Grade (Chairman of the BBC) responds:
I think Mark Damazer was quite surprised at the public response. I think that did make him think, but he has very good reasons for wanting to start the morning with a proper news bulletin. It seems to me a fine judgment. Any change you make on Radio Four is going to be controversial, but I don't think it was an arrogant decision. He made an editorial choice, and it upset a few people.

Mark Thompson (Director General) responds:
Even if the arguments for making a change are rational and it may be the right thing, it can still come as an unwelcome shock, even to people who wouldn't get up and listen to it at all. One of the ways we preserve these services is to think about finding new audiences for them and to welcome new audiences in, hopefully without annoying existing audiences too much. That's the dilemma if you are controller of Radio Four or director general of the BBC. We are listening carefully.